An Informal Interview with Harry Cook

By Joe Kras

Mr. Cook (or Harry, as he likes to be called off the floor) is a very personable and engaging person. He is witty, polite, and just generally fun to be around. In a world where most everyone is trying to create an image, Harry’s absolute candor is refreshing. After reading many articles that he has written I expected a stiffer, more formal person. His writings are always full of facts and reasoned insight. The following conversation reveals a bit of what Harry is like off the floor, and how he feels about many of the subjects that get tossed around both off and on the Shotokan list.

We pick up the tape while talking about etiquette in the English dojo.

 

"If they started calling me sensei outside of the dojo though, I would smack them." Harry Cook

HC: In England, if you’re an instructor and run a dojo, in the dojo the students will probably call you sensei. Outside the dojo, certainly not. The people that came with me (Jon, Paul, Brian and Claire) are good friends of mine. I’ve known them for 8 years or more. If they needed help I would help them, and if I needed help, I’m sure they would help me. If they started calling me sensei outside of the dojo though, I would smack them.

It’s not good for the instructor. It’s very bad for the instructor’s ego. Because eventually he begins to think he can walk on water, that kind of stuff. I’d be very wary of someone running around and saying "sensei this" and "sensei that".

That’s part of Japanese and Oriental culture that I accept (that the teacher is respected somewhat as a parent) but the respect has to be shown in a Western way. Otherwise, you become a bit of a buffoon. Exaggerated respect has no place in a dojo. If anyone has so much ego that they cannot accept fair criticism, then they should not be teaching. With Higaonna sensei, he is treated with respect in the dojo. But outside he is very open and friendly, he treats you like family.

RM: As I see Confucianism, there is a transactional relationship between senior and junior, not just one of junior to senior. And the greater weight of responsibility actually rests with the senior. And it seems that that’s really forgotten about.

HC: That’s right. It’s become a one way street. The senior has a greater responsibility to behave in a correct way. One of the greatest criticisms that one could raise against a Confucian scholar was "A gentleman would not do that". And usually that was enough, if he was getting off the track a bit. The problem is (in some modern dojo) that the responsibility has become all one way. And that was never what Confucius said. And certainly none of the Confucian scholars after him. I think it’s a distortion from the Japanese military, in the 1920s and 30s.

Donn Draeger said it once. What he said basically is "What you’ve got to understand is that a lot of what you are seeing is budo for export". Some Japanese are extreme rascists, and don’t care about gaijin much. Not everybody, by any means, but certainly some. As far as they are concerned, gaijin are inferior and won’t get it right anyway. But as long as they spend money, well, we’ll let them play on the edges.

Martial arts have to adapt to the culture. If you came to England and had coffee you’d probably hate it. It’s instant. But that’s OK. That’s the way Englishmen like it. And we’d probably not like the way you drink tea. But the essential core does not change. But the way it’s transmitted, and the way the relationships are manifested might change.

RM: I’ve always had the impression that European karate was much more organized than here in America., and less commercial in many ways.

HC: In general you’re probably right. Having said that, we have some of the worst commercial establishments you’ve ever seen in Europe. What we do have, maybe because we have smaller countries and the populations are more condensed, is that the traditionalists (those who would identify themselves as traditionalists anyway) work together better. They have a kind of naïve enthusiasm, which is vital. They haven’t become too cynical.

 

"And while it’s become more accepted, you’re still looked upon as a little odd if you do karate." Harry Cook

RM: Some people have commented in the past that some of the major chief instructors in the U.S. have tended to micro manage their associations, whereas in the European associations there was more a sense of contracting with the chief instructor for instruction, thus maintaining a more even balance of power. Possibly representing a generational difference (the European sensei being generally younger).

HC: That’s probably very true. I also think that as America was the first western society to get JKA instructors in any great amount, the experience here served as a kind of warning to the Europeans. The instructors in Europe are still in control, of course, but there certainly is at least the perception that there is a lot more sharing of power.

JK: As karate matures in the west, do you see the tendency towards more and more fractionalization of associations, or do you think that that will reverse itself at some point?

HC: I actually think that at some point the big associations will fall apart, and you’ll have regional groups based on people you want to associate with. And the reason for that is quite simple. Why do you have a big association in the first place? You have a big association because you have one 7th dan (or whatever) and then you have maybe a half dozen 5th and 6th dans, and maybe 30-40 3rd and 4th dans, and then it goes on from there. As time goes on the pyramid gets bigger and bigger, and it’s OK as long as the guy at the top knows most of the black belts, and has trained with them. And they’ve seen HIM train. That’s critical. They’ve got to know that he will put himself through the same training, unless he’s a very old man. The moment that breaks down… The moment that the 3rd and 4th dans don’t have contact (or very little contact) with the chief instructor, then they start asking themselves "What am I doing here? Why am I paying this guy all this money? Why am I going to bring this guy a long ways to grade a 9th kyu, when I’m a 3rd or 4th dan?". It’s senseless. The question is asked and the answer is simple. He wants the money. We’re talking business. "Can I adequately service this dojo by myself? Do I need a piece of paper written in a language I barely understand to tell me I’m worth it? No." We’re in a country here (the U.S.) that came into existence because of the concept of taxation without representation. So the natural fragmentation process goes on. And then the black belts that know each other and train together say "Why don’t we get together and form a group?". And the group gets bigger and bigger, and the process repeats itself. I think that that’s a very healthy thing.

RM: We’re currently in the process of planning a symposium which will look at how karate, as well as the older martial arts of Japan, fit into society and the prevailing culture. Japanese society, Okinawan society, as well as western society. They may function a little bit differently.

HC: Oh, I think very differently. Certainly there’s a big difference between the Okinawans and the Japanese. And definitely the west. In the west, the martial arts are still a bit exotic. It’s like a hothouse flower that flourishes only in special circumstances. And while it’s become more accepted, you’re still looked upon as a little odd if you do karate.

In the west, certainly in sports (as well as in other areas) there is a sense of fair play. It’s a fundamental belief that fair play is essential. Now the Japanese don’t have that same belief in fairness, shall we say. So until there’s some kind of compromise there it’s impossible to do things in a Japanese manner. Because some of the things the Japanese accept we would say, no no no, that’s not fair.

RM: Joe and I were talking about that on the flight over. At first glance, karate is anything but an effective means to teach perfection of character, as well as the other dojo kun in many instances. Certainly when you have the examples of unfairness in financial dealings, as well as instances of sexual exploitation. If we are going to hold on to our own moral values (with regards to fairness in financial dealings, sexual politics, etc.) …

HC: Certainly I wouldn’t accept the way that many Japanese do martial arts at this juncture. It’s a reflection of the worst aspects of military training in the Japanese army. Bullying, treating juniors like nothing, like they’re machines to be used until they break down, and then you can get a new one. Exploitation. That’s not traditional. If you look at the writings of traditional swordsmen, you don’t see that. Not all do that. Higaonna sensei doesn’t do that. He’s been under a lot of criticism in various magazines, but my personal experience is I’ve never seen him treat anybody badly. He makes you work hard, and a lot of people with weak characters are attracted towards him because they think that by being in his orbit they’ll become strong. And when it doesn’t work they blame him for it. But that’s not his fault. He’s acting as a mirror to themselves. He’s showing them what they are.

 

"Karate is full of people that are idealistic. If you treat them fairly, they will respond in a fair manner. If you treat them badly, they’ll leave, and you’ll poison them. And that’s not fair to them." Harry Cook

RM: How do you ensure that these core values are transmitted in the dojo? Isn’t there a bit of a danger, when we’re so concerned with application…One of the old saws of the JKA is "just do it, don’t think, just do it, and by the austerity of it you will become a more perfect individual." How do we approach this issue of a moral education in a karate dojo?

HC: Well, I think if everybody actually goes to the dojo and trains, so you don’t have the two groups-the people in gi’s and the people in blazers telling you what to do-and if the instructors get in the class and work out, and open themselves up to situations where if they land a heavy blow they also take a heavy blow. As long as that goes on, and you treat people fairly, and you’re selective about the people who you teach and the people you get together with, then eventually-in general-it will work. There’s always going to be the odd one or two that slips through the system, but in general it will work. Because you should deal with people that are mature people. The people teaching shouldn’t be 19 year olds. They should be people who maybe have gone through some hard times themselves, so they’ll say "I won’t do that to somebody else". They’re the kind of people you need. Karate is full of people that are idealistic. If you treat them fairly, they will respond in a fair manner. If you treat them badly, they’ll leave, and you’ll poison them. And that’s not fair to them. I mean, just on a commercial level, they’re paying you money. Treat them fairly. All you’ve got to do is adopt the same kind of professional standards as a professional golfer, who would teach you to improve your swing or whatever. It’s a personal thing. Like Confucius said, you take it from the example of your teachers. So the teachers have to live that way. If they can’t, then they should stop teaching. Stop it. Go away, do something else. There’s lots of other things you can do. Go into the porn industry, or somewhere else where those values are acceptable. But generally speaking, most karate teachers who are professional are nice people. Tough guys don’t do karate.

That’s another reason why I think the Okinawan approach to training-particularly to Shotokan people-is of value. Because they kick pads, they hit targets, and it soaks up the shock.

JK: So you’d agree that doing techniques at speed in the air is…

HC: It’s of limited value. Certainly for higher grades. Up to first dan, yeah, OK. As long as they don’t go full speed. Once you get past first dan, what’s the one thing you tell the first dan-get stronger, get stronger, get stronger. That force goes somewhere, it goes into the joints. And western bodies are bigger than Japanese, we create more force, if we’re doing it properly. So what do we do? We put more and more force on joints that are getting older and older. That’s a stupid thing to do. Punch a bag, the force goes into the bag. It serves as a shock absorber.

RM: Some instructors have objected to hitting anything other than a makiwara. No use of focus mitts or heavy bags.

HC: Well that’s stupid! The focus pad is only a makiwara you can move around. That’s a typical one-dimensional way of thinking that’s absurd. So what are you going to say? That it’s OK for people to get bad backs, bad hips, bad knees by the time they’re 50, and they can’t train any more? Bugger you, pal, ‘cause I’m going to ignore you because you’re an idiot.

I’ve never needed any kind of surgery on my knees (touch wood) because when I was younger I began to train by instinct. Because it seemed logical to me. If you’re training to hit somebody, you should hit something. It’s more predictive. The key factor in any system of learning is feedback. What feedback do you get in the air? The primary feedback is the instructor saying "You hit here, foot there". Well that’s no good for a black belt. My students have to do pad work on gradings. So if someone says "Shotokan, no pads" then screw it, I don’t do Shotokan then. It’s only a name.

JK note: Tape picks up while talking about training methods.

 HC: I began training Shotokan in 1967, and Goju in 1977. I haven’t changed the techniques that I learned then. But the training methods have certainly changed. I continue to train with the Japanese, but I take from them what I need, and I change it to suit me. Not the technique per se, but the training methods. Because I won’t train in methods that I know will hurt me. Why should I? Funakoshi sensei said, "The purpose of training is for the improvement of your own body(and everything else, of course)." Therefore to do anything which will damage your body is foolish. The man said it, he’s telling you, "Use your brains, lads." Between your ears is your best weapon.

RM: I went to a presentation by Chris Smaby (a rokudan under Mr. Nishiyama) and he made a big point of commenting how people say that karate movements are natural, but how he felt that karate movements were anything but natural. He said they shouldn’t be, and don’t expect them to be anything else. I guess I have an issue with that.

HC: I would have a serious issue with that.

RM: When I’m on a hard floor and I train a long time my lower back hurts all the time, my knees also, and now I’m 36 and I feel myself starting to slow down and getting older. When I started training my conception was that I would be doing this the rest of my life. I want to start finding smarter ways to accomplish the same things, not just keep going over the same old songs.

HC: My 51st birthday was about two weeks ago, and I can still train now pretty much the same way I trained when I was 36 or 37. I may be a bit slower here or there, but basically I can still do it. And the reason is, I stopped listening to these people. Use your own way. You know your body better than they do. You know when it hurts.

If you should have a chance, you should take the opportunity to train with the Shotokai. Because they’re completely opposite to Shotokan in the whole way they do things. I mean there’s no focus, no kime, everything flows continuous.

RM: Harada?

HC: Harada, yes. I don’t personally like the technique done that way, but it’s a challenge. It’s a challenge to do it that way. Harada sensei said to me once(I like Harada, I got along very well with him. Because he trained with Funakoshi, I used to badger him. And I always think you should get in the class and train, then you can ask reasonable questions.) "Ah, Shotokan people get very stiff. They think stiff is strong." And I thought, that’s a good point. People think that stiff technique is strong technique, but they’re wrong, it’s a weak technique.

RM: Well I’ve read Clive Layton’s book on Harada…

HC: Oh, you’ve got the second one?

RM: No. Just the first one.

HC: Well there’s another one out. It’s slightly updated, it’s called "Reminiscences." I know Clive, actually, we’ve got a book together that’s coming out soon. It’s just a little one, it’s Shotokan quotes, it’s just stuff taken from all kind of published material.

RM: Well, he talks about how people play tennis, and how they golf. And how successful people are fluid and dynamic, and not stiff.

HC: Well Harada told me… (I dabbled in Capoeira. I can’t do it. It’s a challenge, but I can’t do it.) Harada sensei lived in Brazil, worked in a bank, and I asked him(we were at this Budo Sai and Gato came[my function was basically I hired the people for the whole demonstration and basically looked after them and made sure they got on at the right time] and Gato came and trained with his students [half of which are my students as well] and he did a very nice demonstration and Harada was watching and he said "Ah, ah, I used to watch Capoeira in Brazil. It was from the Capoeira that I got the idea for the continuous soft flow. Because they are like the natural way to move your body." So, that guy who said karate is not natural, well of course it’s not, not at the beginning. It’s not natural for humans to swim in water, if you like. But we start, and we’re stiff, and we sink and swallow water. How do you know if you’re getting to be a better swimmer? Because it feels natural. You get to feel comfortable in the movement. So if it always feels unnatural you’re doing it wrong. If you’ve been doing this 30 years and it feels unnatural? You’re doing something wrong then. If you were a shooter or something, and every time you fired the gun it didn’t feel natural, part of your hand, well, get a new gun. Sometimes these people have a masochistic idea, it’s almost a sense of masochism. You must always hurt me, I must always be suffering. OK, then, just take a 6 inch nail and shove it up your foot. You can walk around all day in total agony, if that’s what you want.

You should consider Mr. Ohgami, who is a Wado ryu 7th dan. He’s a chemical engineer by trade. Graduate of Todai(Tokyo University), one of the best universities in Japan. He has tremendous kata knowledge, he’s really excellent, he knows them all (Wado, Shotokan, Goju) and he was telling me, he said, "Harry, maybe I shouldn’t tell you this, because maybe you’ll publish it, but there was some guy in Japan at one of the universities (unfortunately I don’t have the details-yet) who tested the impact ability of a number of people (boxers, various styles of karate, some Kempo people) and within the group was a 5th dan from the JKA. And what they had to do was hit some kind of impact meter. And they got ten shots or something, and it was averaged. Guess who came out at the bottom of the pack? The JKA guy.

RM: I can see that. We always talk about the reason we do the things that we do, in terms of generating power, as if power was an absolute value. It’s a relative value. And if I’m concerned with not over extending myself, and if I’m concerned with what targets I present my opponent, a standard karate punch can make a good deal of sense. But it’s not in my mind purely about power generation as an absolute value.

HC: But the impression that is always given (especially by the Japanese instructors) is that if you train this way you will develop a punch which is as good or better than anyone else. But actually, you’re not doing that. Again, what did Funakoshi sensei say? He said, "When you observe the practice of others you notice doing something better than you, then you should learn from them. Copy them.

RM: He (Funakoshi) said Azato kept records on the other karateka in the region.

HC: That’s right. So he said look around you, if you see something better, use it. That’s what Bruce Lee said. It’s sensible. Don’t we do that in every other field of study? So, you say look, the way I’m punching now is not producing a punch which is comparable in power to other people, it’s weaker than them. So do I have something to compensate for that? Is there something else in the system that nobody else does? Maybe. But then, other styles of karate will punch a little bit stronger, and they do pretty much the same movement. Why is that? Maybe it’s just overextended. So then I should look at the training methods, and maybe if I hit focus pads and body pads a bit more I won’t do that.

RM: One of our club members, a computer programmer, is spending a few months in Toronto training with Mr. Tsuroka, from Chito ryu. The student was commenting on how Mr. Tsuroka instructed him to extend his punch way beyond where he was normally comfortable, to where he felt overextended. He was asking me about that, and I said the only people that I have seen do that tend to be Japanese and not Okinawan. Also that if I had an edged weapon that was going to concentrate this force, then using nice extended techniques might make a certain amount of sense, but if I’m thinking about just percussive ability then I’m using the wrong framework…

HC: Yes, they’ve allowed the non-relevant influence to dictate the form. That’s OK if maybe you want to stretch your shoulders, but if you’re practicing punches, then presumably you want to develop a strong percussive force. Otherwise why practice? Practice that modern Yang style Tai Chi and practice extending your arms as far as they will go. But if somebody says that they’re doing it in order to be able to hit somebody hard, well, they’re doing it wrong. To me it’s not complicated. There are some Chito ryu lads from Scotland that train with me some times. They’re good lads, but they have some funny ways of doing things at times.

RM: It seems it looks a lot like Shotokan.

HC: Chitose knew Funakoshi. And I suppose that there’s a lot more Funakoshi influence then people normally give him credit for. However I wasn't too impressed with Chitose's weapons. He’s a nice fellow, a nice old guy. But the Japanese get a bit strange when they get old, they get odd ideas.

RM: What do you think of Aikido?

HC: I think Gozo Shioda’s Aikido is very good. I like Shioda sensei’s Aikido. I did Aikido for a couple of years, when I was a beginner. If there was a martial art I was going to do it, I didn’t care what it was. I did Ueshiba style, and I was full of the old prejudice that you get from the Ueshiba style against Gozo Shioda. And I’ve actually met some people that did Shioda style, and it seems more practical, and less "airy fairy". Shioda was a bad tempered, kind of aggressive little bird at times, but he knew what he was talking about when it came time to fighting. And the structure of what he does kind of makes a lot of sense. The Ueshiba stuff gets a bit metaphysical for me at times. When he starts to talk about purple clouds coming out of the ground and inhabiting his body-weren’t there a lot of guys around here (California) in the ‘60’s that believed that? Also because Ueshiba spent a lot of time with the Omoto kyo people (e.g., Deguchi). They believe in spirit possession and all kinds of things. Kind of Shamanic. A journey through the cosmos. Which was just the result of eating too many mushrooms. I think Ueshiba went down that path a little too much.

Have you seen the film of Tohei, in the ‘50’s, when the fat journalist challenged him?

What happened was (I’ve got a copy of this) there was an American film crew and some journalists that filmed a whole load full of some senior Japanese martial artists of various kinds, and Tohei was one of them. He did his usual "attacked by ten people" and flicks them around with one arm. And there was a journalist there (a big fat guy in his ‘50s) who had obviously never done anything in years except drink. And he told Tohei that "You couldn’t do that to me(the wrist throws)." So they set up a demonstration. The rules were dead simple. The journalist couldn’t punch or kick. What he could do was grab or wrestle. You’d think that was perfect for Aikido. Because this is the heart of the practice. So Tohei faces off and this guy runs in and grabs him. Tohei tries to throw him and he can’t, because the guy grabs him by the gi and falls over. At one point he almost pulls his hakama off, he rips it down the side. After about two minutes of this, which was embarrassingly long, the guys falling over because he doesn’t have balance, but Tohei can’t throw him. He just drags him off and throws him on the floor. And then (obviously after two minutes he’s suffering, his stamina’s gone) he runs in and grabs Tohei by the jacket. Tohei turns him around and puts a judo choke hold on him, because he was a good judo man. So under pressure he reverted to judo. What happened to all his kote gaeshi and all that kind of stuff? It went out the window, it didn’t happen. Why? Because the guy wouldn’t cooperate. Now when that film surfaced all of the apologists said, "Ah, you don’t understand because it was after the war and the Japanese had to be very careful how they treated the Americans" and I thought "Bollocks, he just couldn’t do it." Also, what you’re telling me is he’s a 7th dan in Aikido representing his system, and he allows himself to be made a fool of in order to not upset some Americans by throwing this guy around who challenged him. It makes no sense. It’s like saying a Thai boxer would deliberately lose. I don’t believe a word of it. It didn’t work. But if it would have been somebody like Gozo Shioda it would have, because he would have bopped him in the chin first.

JK: In interpreting kata bunkai, there seem to be two main schools(the way I look at it)-those who say that each kata should be able to be interpreted as a narrative from start to finish, and those who say that kata serve as an encyclopedia of series of sequences strung together (where the sequences don’t necessarily relate from one to the next). What are your feelings on that?

HC: Oh, I’d probably embrace both. Different approaches at different times. I think some kata can be done as a continuous drill against one person or maybe more than one person(where at any one time you only face one person). But having said that, in other kata bits have been preserved that are worth keeping, and other stuff has been added in which is gymnastic or has calisthenic value.

You see if the fight only lasts a few seconds(and it should if you do it properly) then you have a kata lasting, say, two minutes, then do you have a 5 second fight lasting two minutes? No, you have a series of techniques which are sometimes variations on the same theme. But I also think that some kata have just lost it. They have become so gymnastic or athletic that they have very little value anymore. You can’t really use them. There’s little bits here and there in them, but generally speaking they don’t fit the theme.

RM: It seems that some of the calisthenics actually obscure the interpretation, like the side thrust kick in Nijushiho (Nisheishi). Once I took out the side thrust kick I was able to conceive of several very effective applications at that point.

HC: Very much so. The oldest version of that kata which I’ve ever seen (which I know of) was published in two books. Tokyo University published it in two books, one in 1930 and one in 1933. By Nisaburo Miki and Mizuho Takada, they were friends, and they were teachers there. This is before it became Ohtsuka's dojo. And in the books they published(one of which was just re-printed in Japan-it’s expensive, about $150-$180, something like that). They show the kata in there. In that kata there is no side kick. What they do do (where in the new version you would be in kiba dachi, extend your arm, and do a side kick) you’re in neko ashi dachi, and you do kake uke, then you lift the shin like a Thai boxer would do, and block with the shin, and then reverse punch in front stance, which is dead sensible. It’s a sensible way to do the technique.

So what I do with my group, they first practice the JKA version, or the Shotokan version, because I think the JKA version is useful from a calisthenic approach, it’s got expansion-contraction and all that sort of thing. But when they can do that reasonably well I teach them the older version. And then I say, "OK, now do the older version, but do it with that modern feeling." I think that’s best. Modern karate is better in some ways, because it’s more explosive. People are better nourished now, and we have better training methods. So you can use the old kata to reinvigorate the new ones in some ways. But you also use the modern versions to put a bit of life into your old kata.

JK: Who put the hops in Chinte?

HC: God knows. Don’t do them. They’re a waste of time. They make no sense at all. They’re stupid. End of story.

JK: So you have no idea who added them?

HC: They appear somewhere in the ‘50’s. I asked Kase sensei about it, he said, "The universities." He just dismissed it. It was worthless. I mean, his students do it, because if they’re in competitions and so forth, they’ll get marked down if they don’t. But he just thought it was funny. So I said, "Did you learn Chinte with hops?" He said, "No, with just one step back." So I said, "No one’s trying to chop your legs off with swords or anything?" He thought it was funny.

Actually Chinte is my favorite Shotokan kata. But I used to feel like an idiot doing the hops. I used to have to bite my lip, because I had the urge to start laughing. It struck me as daft when I first learned it, it strikes me as more stupid as time goes on. I asked Kase sensei, "So why the hops, sensei?" And he said, "To get you back to the same spot." I said, "Well, does that matter?" He said, "To some people." It’s sport, it’s the idea of competition.

RM: It strikes me that a lot of the kata may not end up in exactly the same spot, but if you’re in a little grove out in the woods with a couple of people coming back to roughly the same spot may offer some advantage.

HC: And that’s rough and that’s OK. But it’s become a fetish. It’s become a thing of "My god, you were two inches off the spot!" Well big deal. I’m in the same building, that’s OK. I’ve been asked before if it’s important to come back to the same spot. I said, "Well, as long as you’re back in the same dojo it will do." It just seems stupid to me. Why become concerned with things like that? It’s daft. It’s a stupid empty formality that has no place in a fighting system.

There’s a lot of things that have crept in. Take the second to the last move in Nijushiho, where you leap across and turn and double punch, it’s shown as a kind of sliding step. I asked Kase sensei why the sliding step and he said, "No reason, it’s just to get back to the mark." So this fetish to get back on the spot is distorting the movements. Don’t do it. Of course if you don’t do it and enter a kata competition, you’ll lose.

 

"When the Japanese instructors arrived, what was one of the first things that they organized? Competitions. Why? Because it brings in the crowds." Harry Cook

JK: Speaking of competition, who do you think is most to blame for the emphasis on competition?

HC: The Japanese. The universities.

JK: Do you think it just goes back to there, or do the roots go back to Itosu changing karate to bring it into the schools?

HC: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think you can blame Itosu for that. He had a little tendency there, but not much. Because Itosu’s writings indicate that he wanted the martial arts to be seen as building military spirit, while at the same time civilizing people. Which may be a contradiction in terms.

I think the universities. This is where the problem with karate comes, because people that run university clubs in Japan(or anywhere, for that matter) are run by people who are barely out of adolescence. They have adolescent bodies. Who do you find in street gangs? Adolescents. Who needs that kind of strict hierarchical structure, with the one tough guy? Adolescents. The university dojos then extend that to a bigger group through competition-we’ll be the best dojo, we’ll be the toughest with the best fighters. I think it’s kind of inevitable. If young men do something that can be done as a sport, they’ll do it. It’s one of those things. They have friends doing judo and kendo, and think "We can do that." And they went off and did it. But I always find it amusing when I find senior Japanese instructors pontificate in magazines how westerners don’t understand martial arts because they only do it as a sport. Well, who taught us to do that, then? Who was it that said, "There’s a competition coming up, lads. You need to form a team and represent the dojo." It was the Japanese that did it. And you’re expected to WIN. If you didn’t win, then your association was seen as weak. And afterwards the Japanese say, "Oh, but foreigners don’t understand martial arts. It’s not about sport." Well, look at the magazines. When the Japanese instructors arrived, what was one of the first things that they organized? Competitions. Why? Because it brings in the crowds.

JK: And what’s emphasized as far as their credentials…

HC: Sure. World Champion, All Japan Champion, blah, blah, blah. Who do the JKA send abroad to create black belts? Oh, he was All Japan Champion. And yet they then turn and blame people for being impressed by it. Well you can’t have it both ways.

RM: Do you see people within the JKA who can see which way the wind is blowing?

HC: Yea, I think a lot do. Asai sensei, for example. I’ve never trained with him, but from what I’ve read he’s somewhat suspicious of modern trends. He has said that Shotokan has been too exclusive and too straight line, and clearly within his line of Shotokan he wants to bring a more traditional approach. Kase sensei certainly. But I actually think it’s Westerners (non-Orientals) who have become more interested in this now. Because they’ve been through tournament stuff, they’ve done it, and so they’re looking for something a bit different now.

JK: How do you feel the Internet has affected the maturation of attitudes in karate, since the Internet seems to have a great democratizing influence on a lot of things.

HC: I don’t know if it’s made it more mature, but it’s certainly given people a lot more information.

***NEW TAPE***

 

"Martial arts are seen as a mirror. They reflect your self. That’s the shugyo." Harry Cook

JK: Where does the idea come from that karate should be fixed in stone and can’t be changed? Because certainly when karate was brought from Okinawa to Japan it was changed a lot.

HC: Absolutely.

JK: So why all of a sudden are things set in stone?

HC: The needs of large organizations. A large organization needs a standard product to promote itself. If you’re building a car and making a model T, then all model T’s are going to look alike. Because it’s a production line. One man makes the wheels, and every day he makes 100 wheels all the same. So at the end the car’s assembled, and you get a model T.

RM: It’s specific. It’s almost a Zaibatsu model. Because I can think of other large organization models that may not have that same degree of pathology.

HC: It may be an aspect of Japanese systems. But I think there is a tendency towards standardization in other things. There is some need among people to have some present. When you get an education, you have to write an essay a particular way. If you dared to suggest something different, someone would drop down and say "You shouldn’t think that way, you mustn’t do that." So consequently you get cultural fascism. In the martial arts it prevents shu-ha-ri.

RM: Well what is it that distinguishes the traditionalist from the non-traditionalist? On every street corner there is a master. There are people that will "toss out" a technique without having any real investment in it. So how do we distinguish what you’re suggesting from that?

HC: I think if you say this man’s a traditionalist, you have to say a traditionalist to what? And the "to what" is basically a set of values. Martial arts are seen as a mirror. They reflect your self. That’s the shugyo. That’s the key thing with martial arts, otherwise I wouldn’t do it. So it’s always like Higaonna sensei says, "It’s always a challenge. You challenge yourself." It may very well be that you challenge yourself over a period of time. The actual methodology that you challenge yourself with changes, but as long as you’re challenging yourself you share a set of common values with most martial arts groups. Therefore it’s a tradition. It still maintains the concept of "do". Assuming that you’re not purely there for self-defense. In which case you could carry a knife, or a big stone in a sock. Why would you train when you’ve got something (better for self-defense)? As long as you train down that path, then people that have that idea have more in common with each other(irrespective of their styles) than you have with people who are doing it for simply sporting uses, or purely as a business. There’s a business element that has to be there (to pay the rent and such). If they are there for that traditional reason I don’t care what the form looks like. To me that’s secondary. What’s primary is their heart. Why are they there? As long as when you walk in the dojo you get a buzz, you want to train, then you’re a traditionalist in many ways. But if you walk in the door and you start counting heads and saying "I could take that guy, and that one over there" then you’re not a traditionalist. It doesn’t matter how well you do the techniques. You’ve lost it. The heart has died. You’re just going through an empty ritual.

RM: I’ve been to presentations by various JKA instructors which were open to other stylists, and those stylists were like fish out of water. And one of the things that I’ll take from this(multi-style seminar Dragon Times seminar weekend) experience is how similar all of us in many ways were. And how with a certain maturity of the group how easily people can work together.

HC: I actually believe once you strip away the superficial, trivial trademarks of particular styles, we all have two legs, two arms, and one head. And that kind of defines a natural style. That will make everybody do things in a similar fashion.

Take the most famous swordsman of Japanese history, Musashi Miyamoto. Why is he famous? He used two swords. Ah. Where did he get the idea? It may be from the Spaniards or the Portuguese, who were in Japan at the time. Musashi may have seen or been told about that and thought, "That’s a good idea. I’ll do that." Now, was he a traditionalist? I would say yes. Because other warriors in the past had seen other weapons and the fighting techniques the Chinese had used in the 16th century. They took the Chinese spear, adapted it, and they’re as traditionalist as you can be.

I find that people that train in traditional Japanese and Okinawan systems sometimes have a lot more in common with full contact fighters, such as Thai boxers, then they have with sportive point fighters. The sport fighter trains for what the referee wants to see. The traditional fighter doesn’t care what the referee says (they’re aren’t any referees!). The good Muay Thai boxer is training to knock the other guy out as quickly as possible. Funakoshi sensei said, "What’s futile, forget it. Leave it behind. It’s not necessary any more."

JK: Speaking of point fighters. If karate does indeed make it into the Olympics, do you see any benefit at all coming from this?

HC: Like most things I think it will be a two edged sword. Bruce Lee was a terrific benefit to the martial arts, on one level. He generated interest, and brought people in. On the other hand, he also generated a group of people that were only interested in the commercialization of the arts. You’ll bring people in because it’s sporting. The only problem is, when the only martial arts that people think are worth doing are those where you get a gold medal at the end of the day. You know and I know that with a few notable exceptions, most Japanese karate teachers, in most styles, have pushed their students into competition. And then later turned around and said, "Oh no, oh no, you must not do competitions. You don’t understand the true value of martial arts." If you’re a young 25 or 22 year old, a good athlete, and sensei says, "We’re making a national team, and you must try for it." Now you can’t have it both ways. That’s why Frank Smith was annoyed when he said "Mr. Nishiyama told me I have to stop competing. Nishiyama said enough now. Give up the competing." Why? Because he’s the best. He’s 25 or 26 years old, a young bull, and he wants to go out there and butt heads. So he’s been conditioned to do just that, and suddenly he’s told he can’t do that anymore. Well you can’t have it both ways. You can’t go out and say. "It’s very important we have a strong team, and go out and beat everybody." Then turnaround and say, "Oh, by the way, you didn’t really understand what you were doing anyway." Of course you think "Well you were my teacher."

RM: Mas Oyama, in one of his books, mentions that "When you’re young, you do that(compete)." But he contextualizes it.

I think it’s apparent in North American karate that in many cases rank standards have been relaxed. Also, that students tend to train for the test curriculum. And so if you have lax standards, the karate doesn’t grow.

HC: It begins to die. I agree. My answer to that would be to turn it on it’s head. Let’s go back to having only five dan grades. Now, OK, you’re a fifth dan. Now you train or you don’t. It’s your choice. The problem is when you have sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth dans. Why do you have all these people?

JK: You can’t have a box. You have to have a pyramid.

HC: Right. You have to have a pyramid so the money flows to the top. If you have a box, the money is spread out. We’re talking business now. Nothing to do with the martial arts. Funakoshi, as far as we know, only awarded fifth dan. There are a few people with certificates signed by Funakoshi, Harada sensei is one. If it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me. I’ve seen people from various Shotokan organizations(and Wado ryu, Goju ryu, and Shito ryu) who are fifth, sixth, seventh dans, and they’re big fat useless lumps.

JK: Coffee dans.

HC: Yes. Their belts barely fit around their waist. They move around for a while, then they sit. They say, "Well I’m 45 years old now, you can’t expect me to keep going." "Well, get out of here. Just get out." "But I’m a seventh degree." "Yes, yes, yes, of course you are. Go drink your coffee." So that’s the weaker side of it. It’s all an ego thing. People want to worship the Master, Grand Master. It’s nonsense, all nonsense.

If you get together and all wear T-shirts and shorts, no belts, and train, and look at everyone and say, "He looks like he has good technique, this other guy is strong, that one doesn’t look like he’s got it." Then you have everyone put their belts and gi on, and you may see that the guy who looked good is a green belt, and the big, fat, slow one is a 7th degree black belt. And you think, "Well, so what does that mean about the grading?" Now, maybe the 7th degree is an old man, maybe he has injuries, but if he’s honest he’d say, "Yea, I’m old (or I’m injured) and I can’t do it anymore." That’s OK. But then you shouldn’t walk around with that pompous manner, as if the world owed them a living. Just simply because he wants to be a 7th dan, and he wants everyone to say, "Oh, Master, sensei." "Well I’m sorry, you’re fat, and you’re slow. And you didn’t get that way through training, you got that way by not training." Get out. Stop wasting my time. Because in no other area would you allow it. Imagine a university where the head of a department was illiterate. They’d throw him out.

Where do these grades come from. Some self promote, or they get together with friends and make deals, like "You make me a fifth dan, and we’ll both make George a 7th dan, then he can make us 6th dans, etc., etc." It’s nonsense, all nonsense. We should stop at 5th dan. If you’re not mature enough at that time to accept that, then you’ve missed it.

JK: Don’t tell me that you’re not a member of the World Soke Society?

HC: They wouldn’t have me. I wasn’t good enough.

RM: We had a Japanese instructor come to teach in our dojo for awhile. He told us "You’re going to be failures here in North America. You train like we did in Japan. You train too seriously. You’re going to chase everyone out."

HC: That’s not a failure. It means you may not be commercially successful, or you may not have a lot of members. So what? Katori Shinto Ryu never had a lot of members, and they have survived a long time.

RM: I know yondans in major karate organizations in the U.S. that know virtually no bunkai. If godan is supposed to be the pinnacle of achievement, what does that say about the rank inflation that has gone on?

HC: If this person said "I do karate." I’d say, "No, you’re doing aerobics in a gi." "But I train with Master so-and-so." "Maybe you should stop then. Maybe he or she is not allowing you to develop along the lines you should. Why? Business."

RM: There was a bit of a stink at the Master Camp prior to the Shoto Cup in Philadelphia in ’94. Tanaka sensei was at the training camp, and he was told that he was training people too hard. Several people related that there was friction between Mr. Okazaki and Mr. Tanaka at that camp.

HC: That goes back to exactly what I said. Tanaka is from Tokyo. Most of the JKA instructors in Tokyo are not professionals. They don’t make their primary income from the dojo. Their classes tend to be smaller, and harder. So people go to train with Tanaka sensei, or Yahara sensei, or whoever, and they have to meet the standard that’s set there. From the instructor’s point of view, if you don’t like it, leave. But if you’re running a business you can’t say that. You’ve got customers, you have to keep your customers satisfied. It means you don’t push them too hard, and you give them bits of silly cloth to wear around their waist and nice pretty certificates to hang on the wall. And you tell these people "Oh, yes. You are 5th dan, 6th dan." And the assumption is that you’re the same as in Japan.

You know, if you go to a professional boxing gym, and you saw a boxer preparing for a fight complain to his coach "You know, you’re pushing me too hard," the coach would say "Get back in that ring. That guy’s going to train harder than you. He’ll knock your head off." If you’re not going to train with a martial attitude, then you shouldn’t claim to be a 3rd or 4th dan, or whatever. Just say "I train these movements because they make me feel good, and keep me fit. It’s a kind of dance." There’s nothing wrong with dancing. It’s fine exercise.

So, what’s a martial artist? On a very simple level, it’s self defense. Then, like any weapon, you want to make sure it’s as sharp as it can be. And if you’re not prepared to do that, if they want a plastic sword instead of a steel one, then they should consider very carefully what they claim to be. It’s that simple. Take Thai boxers. They’re some of the nicest people you’d want to meet. Because they keep their nastiness in the ring. It’s honest because the other guy’s trying to knock their heads off as well.

*End of Tape*

I hope my transcription of our conversation with Harry Cook conveys at least some of the pleasure we had in meeting and training with one of the foremost researchers (and genuine karateka) one could hope to meet. For the "other side of Harry" don’t miss his forthcoming book on the history of Shotokan. I haven’t seen it yet, but am anxiously awaiting its release. And if you ever have a chance to train with him, don’t pass it by. His technique on the floor is just as honest and forthright as his conversation off of it.